Curse

Hugh Manatee · Feb 28, 2010, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Can I use my Tribal Effigy shield yet, or is tactics still best for x/W types?

I was looking at the new grapple(I used to like it on a D/W with fleeting stability and pios assault>eremites) and thought maybe it could be used with steady stance and an axe, but seems like too much trouble for a warrior primary when he could just use shock or shove...

Also, shove... wow... are shove sins going to be a new thing or what(moreso then they used to be...)? If I dont have to go /e for shock and use shove in an axe bar do I still go /e for a conjure or is there something better to put there? It's 5 extra seconds downtime but I can get rid of stances on those stupid Mo/W and no more exhaustion... I could go /rt for sight beyond sight, go /a for the fun teleports(i used to do iron palm on a W/A but now...

), maybe some form of shove IWAY W/R...

And what about the new defense stances? Gaining juice on blocks doesnt seem like it's worth losing IAS or IMS, except in AB/JQ/FA or oyjer places where IWAY would be applicable... dumb idea, you think onslaught would work on a W/D? I'd only be up like 10-15 seconds out of 20 and get ripped easy but... or maybe weapon of aggression... if it weren't to expensive... but you'd get the stance "buff slot" free and could put one of these there.

It also seems like the shouty soldier stuff is also more for sins and dervs too...

The Mad Addict · Feb 28, 2010, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Let's just say people are going 12 sword/hammer/axe/spear/scythe/dagger 12 tact. 3 str from now

Xsiriss · Feb 28, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

No it's still awful and not worth it.

Chthon · Feb 28, 2010, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I'm inclined to say it still sucks.

The best skill in the update is probably "Fear Me." Not so useful for a warrior primary, since the added damage from criticals is not going to exceed the lost damage from less strength. Potentially useful in combination with skills that do something when you score a critical. Maybe we'll see this in A/W and R/W builds.

Auspicious Parry is a powerful little adrenaline engine because it gives the adrenaline if it's canceled into itself. So far, though, I haven't found a use for this on a primary warrior that's better than just bringing an IAS stance and hitting things cursed with Mark of Fury. Perhaps most useful for caster builds that want to maintain SY!. Maybe paragons.

Thrill of Victory and Defensive Stance are maybe useful as filler skills that give a little extra adrenaline. Unfortunately, my warrior bars are always too cramped for filler skills.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Soldier's Stance is awesome on a warrior primary. So is To The Limit.

For Soldier's Stance builds, you can use a tactics helmet with major tactics and weapon mastery runes, so you get 14 weapon mastery and 15 tactics. The +60 HP buff from To The Limit offsets the HP reduction and you can keep Soldier's Stance up.

Soldier's Stance is extremely useful in incompetent pugs too.

Fear Me is cool with an axe or hammer.

If you use FGJ and abuse the adrenaline engine with To The Limit, you can get some good damage from an axe or hammer, but I still prefer strength, which is a real shame.

It's a step in the right direction, but we aren't quite there yet in my opinion. Anet seems understandably cautious about buffing tactics.

Edit: Oh right. And you can use Dwarven Stability, but that goes without say, and real men spec 15 tactics and bring Healsig.

Teehee.

Reverend Dr · Feb 28, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

It got a buff for warrior secondaries.

Part of the draw of tactics is getting the armor from a shield set. Warriors already get that with strength, furthermore dropping any points from strength means you can't run sentinels.

Lowering existing attributes and losing armor for a "defensive" line doesn't make all that much sense.

They really are right to be extra cautious of buffing tactics. Warrior has been the class that determines the pace of the game and any buff to warriors will have a far large impact upon the game than a buff/nerf to any other class. With a buff to the offensive aspect of tactics, it would be that buff to the warrior class itself. With just a buff to the defensive part of tactics will see no widespread use on the warrior and just further compound the problem of x/W.

AtomicMew · Feb 28, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Auspicious Parry is a powerful little adrenaline engine because it gives the adrenaline if it's canceled into itself. So far, though, I haven't found a use for this on a primary warrior that's better than just bringing an IAS stance and hitting things cursed with Mark of Fury. Perhaps most useful for caster builds that want to maintain SY!. Maybe paragons.

Yes, it's decent for maintaining SY! with casters. But it's a shame they put the breakpoint at 13. It would make a HUGE difference if secondaries could reach it. It's still not as good as double adren gain on a paragon.

On a war though, it might not be completely lost. It's potentially faster adrenaline gain than even the imbagon. Something akin to this: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/R_NRA_Rage_War

Unfortunately, I don't have a warrior to test that out.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Yes, it's decent for maintaining SY! with casters. But it's a shame they put the breakpoint at 13. It would make a HUGE difference if secondaries could reach it. It's still not as good as double adren gain on a paragon.

On a war though, it might not be completely lost. It's potentially faster adrenaline gain than even the imbagon. Something akin to this: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/R_NRA_Rage_War

Unfortunately, I don't have a warrior to test that out.

I think Auspicious Parry is going to replace Focused Anger and For Great Justice in imbagon builds. Since Aggressive Refrain isn't a stance, paragons aren't losing anything, but that sort of adrenaline gain is disgusting when you have an IAS.

Hehe. If you want a pure SY spammer, try this.

Auspicious Parry
Save Yourselves!
Knee Cutter
You Move Like a Dwarf!
Never Rampage Alone
Comfort Animal
Optional
Optional

I don't see it putting imbagons out of business, but it's funny in a way.

Winterclaw · Feb 28, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Yes, it's decent for maintaining SY! with casters. But it's a shame they put the breakpoint at 13. It would make a HUGE difference if secondaries could reach it. It's still not as good as double adren gain on a paragon.

Then it is a good thing the breakpoint is at 13.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

It doesn't make that big of a difference, if you ask me. Two Auspicious Parries still net you enough adrenaline to fuel SY, because you're also attacking under an IAS.

If you want something less idiotic than what I posted above, though, you could use a combination of Thrill of Victory, Sun and Moon Slash and/or Whirlwind Attack with Auspicious Parry and SY. Can fuel it indefinitely, but I haven't tried any of this in actual PVE, haha. At 1 adrenaline and a 2 second recharge, with Auspicious Parry canceling itself, it's incredibly easy to fuel adrenaline without FGJ.

Something like that. Fun, but probably not very practical.

AtomicMew · Mar 01, 2010, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I think Auspicious Parry is going to replace Focused Anger and For Great Justice in imbagon builds. Since Aggressive Refrain isn't a stance, paragons aren't losing anything, but that sort of adrenaline gain is disgusting when you have an IAS.

Actually, you might be right. Thinking about it some more, mathemetically, AP is 2 adren every 2 hits due to recharge, which is the same as FA and FGJ. AND it also happens to stack with Infuriating Heat, which can be useful.

Terek Zelta · Mar 01, 2010, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Yeah. I'm going to dust off my imbagon and go test it later.

Would be nice not to have FA/FGJ, as I find the standard imbagon bar clunky.

Edit: It works. I'm not sure it'd replace FGJ/FA, but it does work.

I'd also like to note how cushy the paragon class is compared to warriors. Warriors take so much work to play, but when I was playing my paragon, wow, couple attacks here, couple shouts there, and you win at PVE. I'm downright envious.

Chthon · Mar 01, 2010, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I think Auspicious Parry is going to replace Focused Anger and For Great Justice in imbagon builds. Since Aggressive Refrain isn't a stance, paragons aren't losing anything

You're losing attributes. The current optimal imbagon builds run 11+1+1 spear, 11+1 leadership (with hat swap), and 8+1 command. THose lucky enough to have 15AL, req7 shields can go 12+1+1 spear, 11+1 leadership, 6+1 command.

Now, you want to go tactics?

You're going to need a req8 tactics shield just to manage the current "bad" split of 11+1+1 spear, 11+1 leadership, and now 8 tactics. And you will have to forego any command skills (which hurts because FtW is arguably optimal for the offense slots in many situations).

And if you don't have a req 8 tactics shield and have to use a req9 shield? Then 10+1+1 spear (ouch!), 11+1 leadership, 10 tactics (you end up with enough points to raise this to 10, but nothing else).

So... I'd say AParry is only going to be worthwhile for the paragon IF you can make one of those tactics shouts bring more than we're losing in spear damage and FtW.

[edit: You might start with Fear Me and Vicious Spear, if you're going to try.]

FoxBat · Mar 01, 2010, 03:04 AM // 03:04

On a para, the auspicious spamming seems to take an average of 5 hits to build to SA. It varies to 6 or 4 depending upon how your attacks sync up with the recharge. This compared to 4 expected hits on the Focused bar. It has the advantage of freeing up a skill slot, but it's much less tolerant to missing a few attacks when changing targets, enemies dodging, physical hate etc.

A spear warrior can swap between flail and auspicious for roughly the same effect, albiet at 33% faster attack rate. Enraging charge to build, flail, auspicious the moment it charges, then immediatly flail again. If you time it right you can maintain constant 33% attack rate while swapping into auspicious. The extra adren you spend on flail is compensated by 13 tactics vs the paragon version. So for those crazy people who like spear warriors, or you really need an imbagon effect but don't have a paragon, this is a passable substitute. It can also work to a degree with any melee weapon if you don't want to use dslash/enraged smash for whatever reason.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 01, 2010, 05:21 AM // 05:21

I was thinking Spear Warrior as well. Spears are just better in most cases dealing with SY!, because you don't have to run target to target.

The attribute split for AP that Chthon is talking about really isn't that dramatic. I really never understood the big to do about dropping two points in spear mastery. It's not like it's going to kill your DPS lol.

Auspicious + Spear + Warrior Secondary makes it so any primary can spam SY! if they -really- want to. Whether it's more effective than imbagon at SY! output is up for debate.

Other than Auspicious Parry and Soldier's Stance, Tactics pretty much still sucks. It shows promise and would certainly open up some niche builds, but for general use, not so much.

Arkantos · Mar 01, 2010, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Short answer: Pretty much.
Long(er) answer: It got some decent buffs, but it's still not worth speccing in for the most part.

Chthon · Mar 01, 2010, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

The attribute split for AP that Chthon is talking about really isn't that dramatic. I really never understood the big to do about dropping two points in spear mastery. It's not like it's going to kill your DPS lol.

1. In my mind, losing FtW is the bigger loss.

2. The point is that you've lost *something*. Whenever a potential change results in a loss, you've got to find an offsetting gain that's as big or bigger, or the change isn't worth making.

Here's the negatives: You lose FtW. You lose some DPS and crit chance from less spear mastery. You take a little longer on average to gain your adrenaline.

Now, what are the positives? Whatever you can do with 1 free skillslot and the spear/leadership/tactics attribute split shown above. So, consider this a challenge if you will: Find some way to twist those positives into something more valuable than the FtW and 2 spear mastery you had to give up.

I haven't thought about it enough to say it's impossible, but I'm rather doubting it.

[Edit: You might try:
Vicious Attack, Fear Me, Burning Refrain -- Maybe you can get enough burning to make up for the lost damage.
Vicious Attack, Fear Me, Hexbreaker Aria -- This will cause a break in SY's uptime. Only useful if you really, really need hex removal.
Vicious Attack, Fear Me, Rez -- If your party is so short skillslots that the rez has to go on you, I suppose this definitely beats giving up 1 skill from the traditional build.]

moriz · Mar 01, 2010, 07:30 AM // 07:30

i'd say shove and auspicious parry are the big ones here. i might be a little biased here, but my old shove sin is beginning to look better and better. without the skill disable, a shove->twisting combo combined with shadow walk/dash and healing sig is virtually untouchable, while delivering decent damage and stance removal to boot. not to mention, no aftercast, so the followup offhand attack is very easy to pull off with a quarterstep.

auspicious parry can potentially work with stand warriors, giving them a reliable adrenaline engine and a block skill to avoid linebacking.

Tenebrae · Mar 01, 2010, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Short answer: Pretty much.
Long(er) answer: It got some decent buffs, but it's still not worth speccing in for the most part.

Agree. Most of the skills used to be a "blehnever" and now are a "blehmaybe" . In some W or X/W bars that already used a tactic skill or 2 its a good change but going to 15 tactics imo is not a viable option atm.

Offtopic : Can we stop this "omg gotta have SY! on my bar" race and talk about tactic skills like "Fear Me" and that stuff ?

Hugh Manatee · Mar 01, 2010, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Yes, Please.

See I didn't know auspicious parry could cancel itself and you still get the juice, that's interesting...

I was running a Shove/Shock bar in RA, was hilarious, 6 seconds of unconditional ground time on an axe bar that can cancel stances going into a spike... wow... I gave up evis for dismember and bulls for shock. Little weak in the opening but I still hurt em with the next two shots.

I'm trying to come up with something fun for JQ or FA, some IWAY/shouty soldier wackiness. I could really use shield stance to hep cap the shrines, the damage reduction of defy pain lets you walk in there and beat stuff up, but then you sacrifice offense for it, but I bet some sort of IWAY/Hundred Blades thing, protected with that stance could just waltz in there...

edit: oh yeah, ever notice how find their weakness is odd in that when you trigger it, the deep wound gets applied, reducing health, then the damage from your attack, causing a sort of self contained spike, normally if you hit with like dismember you have to hit em again to ush the bar all the way down. I dunno if a warrior could keep it up himself, but if he had a paragon buddy, fear me might make that interesting.